32Amp Single Phase Hot Tub vs 3-Phase Hot Tub - Consumer Unit
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matsuyama
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32Amp Single Phase Hot Tub vs 3-Phase Hot Tub - Consumer Unit

by matsuyama » Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:24 pm

Hi,

I'm toying with the idea of getting a hot tub for the garden. I know I will have to get a professional electrician but I just want to gain a better understanding first. It's a mixture of being curious and avoiding the unnecessary bolt-on extras that some electricians might want to sell :)

So, there are two options and both will require some upgrades to the current home electrical system. At least I think so.

1. A single phase 32Amp system
2. 3-phase system

Looking at my current CU, it looks bog-standard. Sorry for the noob question but what kind of upgrades would I need to be able to pull off either of these two scenarios?

I'm just curious as to what the process looks like. Is it possible to upgrade the CU so 32Amp can be drawn out of it safely (and being able to use cooker and kettle as well without burning it down)

And also what's the process for having a 3-phase supply installed at a residential location in the UK.

Thanks... and this is my CU. Been trying to attach images using the form but it says my images are 0 pixels, which they're not. Go figure. I managed to upload photos to Google Drive. Let's see if the admin kicks me out.
drive.google.com/file/d/1odniGk8u1ukGpmxEcxh3UO4fmsVYcy7B/view?usp=sharing
drive.google.com/file/d/17Fbx_c--c6_cesdi-9yDGTfxLI6uMZtw/view?usp=sharing

Mr White
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Re: 32Amp Single Phase Hot Tub vs 3-Phase Hot Tub - Consumer Unit

by Mr White » Wed Apr 27, 2022 7:17 pm

3 phase would be cost prohibitive.
As you said, you will need an electrician to have a look, particularly the distance and earthing arrangements.
Cooker and hot tub being on at same time, not a problem, but just don't put the kettle on too. A lot of houses only have a 60A fuse (Even though the carrier says 100A) this will need to be checked, again, you need an electrician.
If all is well, you only need a suitable cable to then hot tub and another MCB (Not counting time and materials) again, you need an electrician to check.

matsuyama
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Re: 32Amp Single Phase Hot Tub vs 3-Phase Hot Tub - Consumer Unit

by matsuyama » Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:23 pm

Mr White wrote:A lot of houses only have a 60A fuse (Even though the carrier says 100A)


Thanks, Mr White,

Makes sense but looking at my CU, there isn't space for any more MCB. Does that mean I will need to get a new CU?

The mains switch on my CU suggests it is 100A. Is that what you're referring to when you say "carrier has marked it 100A but it's actually only 60A"?

Are there any modifications available? I'm reading on one of energy supplier's website: "You can upgrade from a 30amp or 60amp fuse to either an 80amp or a 100amp fuse."

So, if my CU mains switch already says 100 on the label, does that mean that I can't have any upgrades?

Also, I'm struggling to understand what changes are done by the DNO and what's done by an electrician.

Mr White
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Re: 32Amp Single Phase Hot Tub vs 3-Phase Hot Tub - Consumer Unit

by Mr White » Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:28 pm

I never said switch, I said carrier, there is room for just one more MCB.

You probably do not need the DNO. Your question is not really as simple as it sounds, the answers depend a lot as to what is on site, something that can't be tested / viewed from a keyboard, which is why I say again, you really do need an electrician to visit site.

ericmark
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Re: 32Amp Single Phase Hot Tub vs 3-Phase Hot Tub - Consumer Unit

by ericmark » Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:21 am

Any high powered item needs the power to be there to start with, the domestic supply is limited to 100 amp as we use consumer units which only come as 100 amp units, but we can have multiple consumer units and multiple supplies, this is common in the 80's where one fuse box was for heating from a white meter and one for everything else called economy 7, and farm houses often have a split phase supply, again two supplies, but there is a problem with single phase with motors, in getting them to start turning, so we tend to use three phase for motors.

Today there is no need for a three phase supply to use a three phase motor, my freezer has a three phase motor but a single phase supply and an inverter changes it to three phase for the motor.

In Europe split phase is more common, and often we find cooker hobs designed to use either single phase or split phase, same cooker, just move some links to swap from split to single phase.

So the supply can be increased by using more than one phase, but before we consider that we need to look at what we have.

The old Wylex fuse box was only rated 60 amp, and often our homes have only a 60 or 80 amp supply, not all have a 100 amp supply, and in some cases the supply is split and feeds two homes, so not as simple as fitting a larger fuse.

There is also the supply type, we have TT and TN and the latter is split into TN-S and TN-C-S and the latter needs to be in premises where items are bonded as under fault conditions the earth from the supply can be a different voltage to the true earth.

This has cause problems, so caravans, boats and petrol stations are not permitted a TN-C-S supply, and electric car charging units need special disconnecting systems which will disconnect the point including the earth under fault conditions.

In the main things used in the garden are class II, that means there is no earth, so the lawn mower, etc is no problem, but larger items consideration must be given to how to earth in a safe way.

Some hot tubs are class II, but where not class II then either it needs to be in doors, or supplied with a TT or TN-S supply, TN-C-S or PME as it is also called is not really appropriate.

When a supply is made TT then one has to look at the voltage gradient under fault conditions, items like caravans have to be a set distance from buildings due to fire regulations, so no real problem, but if the hot tub is in the garden looking at least 3 meters from house, or any other PME supply.

So looking at amount of current used, and also earthing arrangements.

Again the EV has seen how you need to inform the DNO if the power used increases, and in some cases you can't have an EV charging point because of bundled supplies (shared with another house) and the cost of getting a new supply can be very high.

Remember we started to build the National grid before the second world war, (1935) but last village to be connected was in 2008, Abergeirw, near Dolgellau, Mid Wales, so to upgrade supplies it is reasonable to expect same time scale, so looking at 70 years to upgrade supplies so all cars can be electric. OK may be a little quicker, but it does take time.

To fit EV charging points electricians need extra training, mainly about the earthing problems, it is not as easy as it looks, the same with your hot tub, it is a lot more complex than one first thinks to put in a supply, and clearly not a DIY job or some thing which can be designed on the internet.

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