Relocating ring main socket Ask questions and find answers to many subjects relating to electrics and electrical work

[Corrado]

Hello all

I am planning to move plug socket locations in my room due to the fact that I will be installing a wardrobe over the existing socket.

The existing socket is on a ring main. Would I therefore be wisest to:

connect the wires that are currently going to the existing plug socket to a 30A junction box under the floor boards and then continue to lengths of cable to the same plug socket at a diffferent location in the room?

I then was hoping to take a spur from its new location.

I can't see why I can't do this, but wanted to know if anyone on here thought otherwise.

Thanks as always!

[singer]

Hi Corrado,

What you are suggesting is almost right but you will need to install TWO 30A junction boxes not ONE. You must keep the 2 legs of the ring main seperate until they connect together at the socket.

I'm wondering why you cant incorporate what you intend to spur off this socket into the ring!!

Remove both cables from existing socket.
Extend both cables with junction boxes.

Run one cable to new socket position and the other to your intended spur, then run a new piece of cable between the two.
Both points will then be on the ring.

However, consideration has to be made to the requirements of the 17th edition regs and "Part P" requirements!!

Firstly it is possible to do this work yourself as long as you inform the local authority what you intend to do before you start and pay a fee for them to take responsibility of the "building control".

Secondly the work you are describing is an "addition or alteration to an existing circuit" so if the circuit is not already RCD protected then at least the new section of the circuit will have to have RCD protection introduced.

If you are extending a ring then the only way you can acheive this is at the origin of the circuit at the fuseboard.

Finally the finished job will have to be tested with calibrated instruments and a certificate issued against the job. How this is acheived varys from one local authority to the next so you will have to speak to them on what their requirements are.
So if you think you are capable of all that, thats what needs to be done.

If all that seems over the top for what to you seems like just a simple job, then the alternative is to employ an electrician who is a member of a "competent persons scheme".
The electrician can install, test and certify the job without reference to the local authority and can notify them of the work on completion, if that becomes necessary.

Sorry to complicate things but thats the law.

[kbrownie]

Hi corrado,
A few things to consider here, the requirements say that accessories should be easily accessible for inspection. This is important because if there was ever a fault there it would be hard to detect and repair. So your junction box being an accessory under the the floorboard and not easily accessible is not allowed. Unless you use maintenace free junction boxes which are allowed but not that easy to find on the high street.
On a ring main final circuit you can not spur from a spur and what you have desciribed sounds like that is what you intend to do.
So is the wardrobe a fitted one or freestanding would there be a problem putting a fused connection unit in the location where the socket you intend to move is? (remember easily accessible).
If you can do this, then you can run a cable from that point under the floor and have two individual socket-outlet as you can then spur from a spur as long as a fused connectoin unit is installed as described. Remember that you must maintain the ring final circuit and any addition to circuits must have a minor works cert.
Kind Regards
KB

[sparx]

hi,
if you have intended to extend ring with TWO JB's and both ends taken to new position then run a spur is ok or even put them both on the ring by taking one extended end to each new position and linking between.
What you can't do is use one JB and do a double spur from one to another. Theoretically you could connect the ring into a JB and run 2 seperate spurs but it will be almost impossible to get 4 cables into one set of terminals!
regards SPARX

[moggy1968]

some of the information above is incoreect
The regulations state that a minor works certificate 'may' be issued. there is no obligation for this.
Because this is an extension to an existing circuit in a bedroom it is not notifiable under part P (assuming there is no shower unit in the bedroom, in which case things become a little more complicated)
If the existing socket circuit is not RCD protected the easiest way to do this is to use an RCD fused connection unit, which costs about £25. you can then spur your 2 sockets off this.
If the socket circuit is RCD protected then the best ways are as above, either extend the ring to incorporate the new sockets or fit a fused connection unit and take your 2 sockets off that as spurs. as a above any multiple spur must have it's own fused connection unit.

[kbrownie]

Hi moggy1968,
Not going to quible over requirement according to BS7671:2008 but minor works cert needed to assure the circuit is safe and healthy to use and is not going to kill or burn someone property down! Are you saying lets not have that done?
Never mentioned document P of building regs as it is not notifiable.

Now that being said time to quible:
now lets consider requirement 631.3. BS7671:2008
where minor electrical installation work does not include provison of a new circuit, a minor electrical installation works certificate, based on the model given in appendix 6, may be provided for each circuit altered or extended as an alternative to an electrical installation certificate.
Now to me that means either a minor works cert or a electrical installation cert should be made out. So You may have been right by saying A MINOR WORKS CERT IS NOT NEEDED BUT THEN YOU DO NEED TO HAVE ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION CERT INSTEAD.
Am I wrong?
KB

[moggy1968]

hi Brownie!
it wasn't you who mentioned part P, it was singer.
A minor works cert is your safety net, as an electrician, that you have done the appropriate tests and the circuit is safe to use. To be pedantic, the certificate doesn't prove the circuit is safe to use, your tests do. just because someone chooses not to issue a cert doesn't mean they're in the wrong, but if the house does burn down and 3 years down the line it goes to court the minor works is going to be your only defence, so yes I would agree it should be done, but it certainly isn't an absolute requirement and would be beyond the scope of a diyer.

Wether a diyer should be attempting this is of course an entirely different issue!! On that note, if the house does burn down can the person who has done the work prove their competency. as a diyer that could be difficult and persuading the insurance company to part with their cash could be tricky.

Having spent 7 hours in a property last week going under the floors and then having to open up an enclosed ceiling cavity in an extension to find and rectify a lighting fault I would also definately agree with your sentiments on junction boxes, and choccie blocks too, although they aren't mentioned here!

[kbrownie]

Hi moggy1968,
After I first read your post comments regarding the requirements, I felt a need to amend/edit my response on the regulation of certifications.
For an additon or extention to an electrical circuit you must give either a minor works or an electrical installation cert, that complies to BS7671:2008. Which will be backed up by the electricity at works regulation 1989 and the health and safety at works act 1974. So I hope you agree a minor works cert would be the more practical to do.
I am quite aware that a diyer will most probally not have the knowledge or the correct test equipment to carry this out, so you rightly said it would be beyond their scope and they may not care as long as the TV is plugged in and working!

My worry is that not a lot of diyers are aware of such requirements and carry the work out and don't consider the dangers.
I try my best to explain safe methods and hopefully guide people on this forum so they are made aware of this.
Most times you can tell when they are clueless and it's call the electrician in answer, but some do have a some knowledge and I have always been a do it myselfer rather than get some one in person so I won't knock them or i'm a hypocrite.
But I consider safety paramount and will normally mention part p and regulations when I feel it is needed.
I had not seen your name in this forum before and I hope you can appreciate that some forum members make flippant comments that are not based on any formal knowledge and may be something they have read somewhere else and not totally understood. Not having a go, I think you do. I get it wrong sometimes and like to be put right when I, do don't tell the misus that!
Have a look at the big red book page 163 chapter 63 requirement 631.3.
Kind Regards
KB

[moggy1968]

HI Brownie
rather annoyingly it would appear you are right!!
appologies for that, I shall now go and eat my hat
I have just looked up the relevant bit in the big red book which confirms what you say. I was going by guidence note 3 Inspection and testing. the wording is different and could be interpreted as you say, or as I (and my colleagues) do, or did, which is as a above, looks like they're in for a shock (so to speak) tomorrow morning!!
happilly I usually issue one anyway for the legal reasons I gave above :)
Andy
P.S.
I have read a lot of your other posts and they back up what you say in your reply, good advice delivered at the appropriate level (i.e. here's how to do it or - get an electrician!)
I found this forum recently which is why you haven't seen me before. I was looking up something I was unsure of myself, so it's handy even to us sparks out there, not just the diyers! :)

[kbrownie]

Hi Andy
No worries glad to be of help, even if annoyingly.
I'm sure you can pick up points that I make and correct me in the future, good to have you on board.
Kind Regards
KB