Switching and mixing 240V LED and 12V lights off same light switch
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BracknellDIY
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Switching and mixing 240V LED and 12V lights off same light switch

by BracknellDIY » Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:47 am

Bathroom. Currently has 12v 50w halogen spots fitted (6 in total). I'd like to get to more energy efficient setup but without too high upfront cost. The first hurdle is that 12v MR16 LEDs don't come with equivalent lumen output without paying a lot: the only come up to 35w equivalent level. But also very good chance that the existing transformers which predate LEDs would need changing to get properly efficient system. So my other thought was to switch the lamp holders over to 240V GU10 (and I'm pretty sure the same ceiling holders will work but not yet tested that) and remove the transformers. However, I would be inclined to leave the fitting that is over the shower as that is a IP65 zone 1 rated fitting (plus I wouldn't need to think about whether a separate RCD would need fitting if it was switched to 240V).

So 1) is it ok for me to run both 240 and 12v on the same switched circuit (in theory I can't see any reason why not since the 12v transformers are just hanging off a 240v from the switch, obviously) 2) does this plan make any sense ?

Mr White
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Re: Switching and mixing 240V LED and 12V lights off same light switch

by Mr White » Sun Aug 21, 2022 9:09 pm

If you think about it, you are not really switching 12v and 240v from the same switch. You are only switching 240, one to a set of 240v Lamps, the other to a "power supply" that changes 240v to 12v.

So the answer has to be yes, yes.

ericmark
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Re: Switching and mixing 240V LED and 12V lights off same light switch

by ericmark » Tue Aug 23, 2022 10:37 am

There are two types of 12 volt transformers, the toroidal lighting transformer will work from zero to rated output, and has same frequency output to input, and you can fit LED AC G5.3 lamps to replace the quartz halogen lamps without any alteration.

The electronic lighting transformer regulates the output, with is normally in the kHz range, and often there is a minimum as well as maximum output, and since a LED is a diode it can become a transmitter, it seems common to use a DC power supply often called a driver to run LED 12 volt units, some so called electronic transformers, which would be better labelled as switched more power supplies will go from zero to maximum output, so need to read the label.

The main problem with changing from extra low voltage (12 volt) to low voltage (230 volt) is since 1966 the regulations require an earth wire to be take to any fixed installation with the exception of a light suspended from the ceiling, and the MR16 lamps are not suspended so require an earth taking to them, even if not used.

I think main ignore that, but it would be wrong not to point it out, as could result in a code C2 with an EICR.

Personally I would change to GU10, note a GU10 refers to the connection, the old 12 volt was G5.3, the MR16 refers to a spot light with a multifaceted reflector 16/8th of an inch across, so a quartz halogen GU10 is still a MR16 lamp, and in the main LED lamps both 12 and 230 volt are not MR16 lamps as they don't have the reflector.

Like calling the vehicle test a MOT when the ministry of transport went years ago we still use old names.

Main difference between 12 and 230 volt is you can get smart bulbs with 230 volt that can dim and colour change both colour temperature and red, blue, green.

In the main 12 volt use a resistor as a driver, each LED is approx 3 volt, so 3 LED's and a resistor is used to make 12 volt, the resistor produced heat, so it is hard to do this and comply with new part L law, New fittings must produce 82 lumens of light per circuit watt for general lighting or 75 lumens of light per circuit watt when used for accent or display lighting. It was 45 lumen per watt, so many MR16 bulbs now fall foul of the new regulations, the 12 volt DC MR16 bulb can be up to 100 lumen per watt, narrow boats and caravans need to use as little power as possible, often they have a voltage range of 10 - 30 volt, but the domestic lamp often marked 50 Hz used in most homes, is down to 75 lumen per watt. Not even as good as the old fluorescent lamp.

With a GU10 lamp the cheap lamp uses a capacitor as a current limiter (driver) which does not produce much heat, with the G5.3 normally it uses a resistor, so the question is how long will we still be able to buy cheap bulbs.

The DC version uses a micro chip to control the current, which makes the lamp more expensive, the 230 volt smart bulb also uses a load of electronics so we are likely to see less of a difference between price of a smart bulb and normal bulb.

BracknellDIY
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Re: Switching and mixing 240V LED and 12V lights off same light switch

by BracknellDIY » Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:33 pm

Mr White wrote:If you think about it, you are not really switching 12v and 240v from the same switch. You are only switching 240, one to a set of 240v Lamps, the other to a "power supply" that changes 240v to 12v.

So the answer has to be yes, yes.


Thanks for the response: yes my thinking was exactly that: namely that from the switched circuit point of view essentially it is just a set of 230/240 volt devices in parallel, The fact that there are 12v devices on the other side of the transformers is 'immaterial'. Though I note below comments around earthing differences.

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Re: Switching and mixing 240V LED and 12V lights off same light switch

by BracknellDIY » Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:44 pm

Thanks for the comprehensive and informative reply. yes I now recall the 2 different types of transformer (I looked a bit into this when I first thought about making changes but it was probably about 12 months ago and I got distracted !). But I think it was part of the reason I was thinking an easier solution was to just move to 230v.

The point about earthing is noted, and I suspect that may be a consideration. If the switched circuit is earthed (i.e. from the switch) then more manageable problem to sort. I am intrigued as to why the exemption for suspended light but not fixed. I really struggle to understand the logic behind that !

MR16 vs GU10 vs GU5.3 etc. Thanks. I had been a bit loose with my terminology. I understood the different between GU10 and 5.3, but had always been a bit confused about the way MR16 was sometimes used almost synonymously with both. I now get it so thanks.

Followup question then. Do similar considerations mean that MR11 / GU4 LEDs may also be going out of fashion ? This is also of particular interest to me due to the very reasons you say. Namely I have a motorhome which has some GU4/MR11 bulbs on the 12v. Are the cheaper LEDs of these going to disappear ? I'd heard they were getting difficult to source, but hadn't understood why.

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Re: Switching and mixing 240V LED and 12V lights off same light switch

by ericmark » Wed Aug 24, 2022 1:43 am

https://bedazzledledlighting.co.uk/ specialise in lamps for boats and caravans, in the main 10 - 30 volt DC, I have never used them as now no longer have a caravan, but a 12 volt lead acid battery has a voltage on charge of up to 16 volt (RB106 dynamo regulator setting) so the lamps uses in houses would be damaged if used in boats, caravans and motor homes, as they are designed for 12 volt, not a lead acid 12 volt battery.

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